In Conversation With… Professor Bob Doherty

He’s also a Director of Fix Our Food (where our paths met as Bremner & Co work with Fix our Food on both school food auto-enrolment and early years nutrition).

Bob was trustee for the Fairtrade Foundation for 6 years and is a member of the Grow Yorkshire Board. He also sits on the UKRI Sustainable Agriculture and Food Strategy Advisory Panel in the BBSRC Research Council. 

Afternoon Bob, I like to start with a big question – what are you hoping for with a Labour administration with regards to food systems policy?

Hi Dayna, great to talk to you. Well, so far, you can see from Labour’s manifesto and the Kings Speech that there is more ambition compared with the previous government. I’ve been really pleased with the emphasis on opportunity and equity, and you can already see an intent to intervene in the market whereas the previous government was very reluctant to do so. You can also see a desire to intervene to support young people and their nutrition through free breakfast clubs and intent around free school meals.  

Also promising is a particular focus on food security. Working in this area myself I see a real focus on getting to grips and understanding the increasing magnitude of risks that face the UK food system. Whilst we might see full supermarket shelves, if you step back and look at how increasing climate and geopolitical risks might impact the food system simultaneously, there’s a need to tackle risks more proactively which this government seems to understand. 

There also seems to be an appetite to do more cross-department thinking around food policy and the food system, which is brilliant to see and long overdue in my view. 

I talked to Louis Bedwell before about policy change, how often it is slow, incremental and at times frustrating for those of us that work in it. From your experience (Bob was seconded to DEFRA between 2019-2022 to work on food systems policy), what skill set do NGOs, advocates, and food systems activists need to create food policy change? 

I look at it from two perspectives. I’ve been lucky to work in policy, at Divine Chocolate, and as a trustee at Fairtrade where advocacy was a key part of the work, so I’ve experienced both sides of this dynamic. It’s important to be both patient and persistent while also equipping yourself with the right evidence.  

There is a myth that a lot of evidence resides within government departments, but in reality there is a shortage of evidence. It’s important for academics and NGOs to work in partnership with government departments, to make sure the available evidence is robust, rigorous, and unbiased. Evidence also needs to be translatable and accessible to the relevant audience, with key points highlighted for time-poor stakeholders. 

It’s also important not to get downhearted, as the impact of a policy brief might take a couple of years to take effect. Understanding the cycle of policymaking can help you identify opportunities. Look at the select committees, understand the parliamentary rhythm and key milestones in the year, identify what commissions are asking for, and what the House of Lords is asking for too. 

Can you talk to us a bit about your work for FixOurFood? I’m particularly interested in the work you do on sustainability in food supply chains. 

FixOurFood is very place-based. In Yorkshire we have some amazing farmers, food businesses, and networks. We’ve tried to bring networks like Deliciously Yorkshire and the Small Business Federation together, and work with those networks to scale up sustainable practices within supply chains.  

We are also working with Deliciously Yorkshire to pioneer a Sustainable Produce Award within their annual awards portfolio. This is encouraging businesses to showcase their sustainable practices. Last year we nominated 3 amazing local businesses; Yorkshire Pasta Company, Acorn Dairy and Sloemotion Distillery. They are all using sustainable practices including local production, renewable energy, certified organic or sourcing from regenerative farmers, and more, and the awards incentivise more businesses to follow suit.  

We are also working with some big corporates in Yorkshire, such as the Co-op, Nestle and Diageo, to initiate systems shifts through getting them to source more regenerative produce from local farmers and deploy other sustainable practices at a landscape level. Working at those different system levels is important to scale-up sustainable supply chain practices. 

What are your thoughts on the Government Buying Standards (GBS) – our report on early years called for them to be included in the GBS, as they are currently missing – what, in your view, is also missing from the GBS? 

It seems that Labour sees improving public procurement as an opportunity to enable more sustainable and healthy diets in the public sector; particularly in schools. I’d like to see more emphasis on local and sustainable produce, and more mandatory embedding of standards within procurement practices. Mechanisms of monitoring and evaluation also need to be introduced and led at a government level, this is a huge gap currently.  

There are amazing examples from other countries we can learn from, such as Brazil where procurement policies have stimulated more interest in children’s education, you’ve got local farmers and businesses coming into schools and doing talks, and schools doing farm visits. Closer to home we know a great school chef at a Yorkshire school who sources all produce from within a 50-mile radius and shares his recipes on a Facebook page. Parents must love to see what their children are eating and that it’s healthy, locally-sourced, and that there’s passion and culture behind it.  

You spent a long time working in chocolate (Bob held the position of Head of Sales and Marketing at Divine Chocolate Ltd, a leading Fairtrade social enterprise, for five years and was also a Fairtrade Foundation trustee) – how do you see the future of Fairtrade evolving? 

Fairtrade is still the most trusted independent certification in the world, the only certification which pays an economic premium, and it works with smallholder farmers in global supply chains who are otherwise often exploited and disadvantaged. Smallholder farmers are increasingly facing a greater magnitude of risks, particularly from climate change and its associated impacts.  

Fairtrade is evolving to look more at the problems smallholder farmers face from a systems perspective. One way this is evident is that you can increasingly see the economic and social premium that Fairtrade delivers being used for climate change mitigation and adaptation. Efforts like these can help enhance farmer resilience against shocks, so they can continue to produce vital international commodities like coffee, cocoa, and bananas.  

There is also work ongoing within the Fairtrade movement concerning living income for farmers, which helps increase farmers’ capacity to use sustainable practices. Some brands are also involving farmers as shareholders in the business through annual dividends based on the retail price, so they are not only reliant on the raw commodity price for value retention.  

Following on from that; we see a lot of inequity in the chocolate value chain, where farmers retain a very small percentage of the value while taking on a huge portion of the difficult work of production and substantial vulnerability to risk. Does the solution lie in manufacturers and retailers sharing more of the value, or do consumers need to pay more for the product? 

It’s clear that farmers don’t get the value they deserve. This is where work on living income can make a difference. Corporations also need to work together in coalition to advocate for more equity for producers. We also need to stop BOGOF promotions which devalue the product and make less value available up the chain. Everybody needs to do their bit, it’s not about a single actor or action but the whole system contributing to positive change.  

Lastly, what’s for dinner, please? 

Tonight’s dinner is leftovers. It’s seasonal broad beans, asparagus, frozen garden peas, cooked with onion and garlic, and then with local pasta from Yorkshire Pasta Company who source their wheat in the region too.  

Bob’s seasonal broad beans and greens pasta  

Makes 2 portions – one for dinner, one for leftovers the next day! Or double-up for a family dinner.  

Ingredients

• 175g dried pasta of your choice (I recommend going local – my choice is Yorkshire Pasta Company’s Penne) 
• 1 tbsp olive oil 
• 1 shallot or half an onion, finely chopped 
• 2 garlic cloves, crushed or finely chopped 
• 1 tsp vegetable stock, or ½ vegetable stock cube, crumbled 
• 250g greens, my choice is asparagus and garden peas  
• 250g broad beans, de-podded 
• 50g crème fraiche 
• 1 lemon, finely grated zest 
• 20g Parmesan (or alternative vegetarian hard cheese), finely grated 
• Salt 

Instructions 

Cook pasta according to packet instructions.  

In a large deep frying pan, add the oil, onion and garlic and fry until aromatic and softened (a few minutes should do). Add the stock, let fry for a few seconds, then add a cup of pasta water. Add in the broad beans, and cook for 2-3 minutes, stirring regularly, then add the green veg and cook for a further 2-3 minutes until all are cooked through but still fresh and textured.  

Drain the pasta, reserving another cup or so of the cooking water, then add the pasta to the pan with the beans and greens. Turn the heat up to high and cook for a minute, stirring constantly, and adding a little of the reserved pasta water to make a smooth sauce. 

Remove the pan from the heat, stir in the lemon zest and crème fraîche, and serve topped with the grated cheese. 

Look out for the next in conversation with… where we’ll be speaking to Dan Parker, Chief Executive of Veg Power.

Edited by Rosie Osborne.