‘In conversation with…’ is a series of blog posts where we talk to inspirational people working in the world of food policy.
In December last year, Rosie spoke with Jayne Jones, the inaugural Chief Executive of the Scottish Food Commission. With over 20 years working in public food, Jayne has played a leading role in shaping how public sector catering, procurement, and policy can better support health, sustainability, and local economies.
The conversation took place shortly before both the publication of the Scottish Good Food Nation Plan, and Jayne’s transition out of the public sector catering world into the Commission. She therefore spoke from this perspective, reflecting on the experiences of caterers and procurers operating within the public sphere.
Jayne is known for her practical, systems led approach to public food. Her work centres on recognising food as a public service, supporting the people who deliver it day to day, and using public procurement as a lever for wider social, economic, and environmental change.
We caught up with Jayne to discuss what effective systems thinking looks like in practice, and how public food can better serve communities now and over the long term, and her objectives stepping into her exciting new role.
Huge congratulations on both your Lifetime Excellence Award at the Scottish School Food Awards and on being appointed the inaugural Chief Executive of the Scottish Food Commission! As you step into this new role, what are some key lessons you’ve learned in your career so far that will help you shape priorities for the commission? What would success look like for you in 5 years?
I think there are a few things that I’ve picked up in my 20 years of working in public food, that I’m hoping will stand me in a good stead as I step into this new stage in my journey.
The first is that no one individually has all the answers, and that there are always different ways of doing things. Improvement comes through collaboration and learning from each other. For me that’s the most important lesson to keep in mind.
Listening to different perspectives is really critical. It’s something we see every single day in public food. We have our farming communities asking questions about why we’re not serving more red meat in our meals, and then at the same time we have vegan lobbies asking why we are serving red meat at all. People hold these views for important reasons, so providing space to come together, identify values we might share, and develop a joint vision that we can all sign up to is key.
Another lesson is the importance of not forgetting the why – why do we do it? We are striving for good quality, tasty, nutritious, and sustainable food on plates because we want to feed people well.
And what that comes down to is people. It includes our staff as well as the caterers working hard in public kitchens. It’s the primary producers, those working in processing, those delivering our food 24 hours a day. Our public food system is for people and by people too.
The first national Good Food Nation Plan is about to be published. It’s a five-year plan, so it’ll be interesting to see how much of this comes into fruition. Ultimately, we’re talking about generational change, so if we can try and find those small tangible improvements that stick, that would be really positive.
If there’s three things we could deliver in that time, I want to see more work emerging around the concept of public diners as an alternative to high cost or fast food, and to help foster that connection with people and food in place.
I also want to see a reemergence of pride in our local food culture. I think we continue to lose that and there can be a real snobbishness and judgement about traditional British food that we don’t see elsewhere.
And third, I want to see us turn a corner around procuring local, sustainable and ethical food. We know we have commitment with UK Government to buying 50% local and sustainable, there’s great work happening in Wales getting veg into schools, and in Scotland we recently had a round table discussion with the National Farmers Union of Scotland to see how we can create traction and build on the work already happening.
So I think those are three things that I would really like us to look back on in five years and say ‘thank goodness we had them at the top of our list!’.
Looking back, what first drew you into public sector food and what’s kept you committed to improving access to good food for everyone?
Food is something that’s fundamental to my family and to my upbringing, so I have a really personal connection to it and interest in doing the best we can with food. I joined the world of public food 20 years ago, driven by a desire to deliver social good through the work I do, beyond putting money in shareholders pockets. Public food was a means of doing that, to use my time effectively and to improve the system from within.
My mum was a dinner lady. I didn’t realise that would end up circling back, but that just shows you how deeply rooted your values can be. I always understood the power of public food, the passion, care, and commitment that went into preparing it. I think that’s why I’m sometimes like a broken record talking about the caterers, because for me it’s quite personal.
You’re a strong advocate for fairer, more local, and sustainable procurement. From your perspective, what are the most effective ways to strengthen local supply chains and bring more seasonal and sustainable local food into public-sector settings?
We know that public procurement can be a powerful lever, and we want to support community wealth building by returning money into local rural communities and helping them to thrive. Shortening supply chains can help strengthen fair working conditions and pay, address biodiversity loss, and reduce climate impacts from food. When we harvest closer to the point of sale, food can be fresher, tastier, and more nutrient dense. The why is so clear. But the trickier part – how do we make it happen?
Ultimately, all of this comes down to people. It’s about people’s capacity for change. It’s about their capacity to reach out and connect and make things different. And it’s a capacity to build relationships within the supply chain. Sometimes people don’t know where to start. I think some of the inertia is created because we don’t have a huge amount of data, evidence, or structure that allows people to find starting points.
Small and micro businesses and enterprises (SMEs) need support with that maze of public procurement. They don’t have the time and headspace to write big tender submissions. We have a gap in providing the right support, because signposting is not enough.
There are quick wins that procurers can use. Splitting contracts into small lots to encourage SMEs and local businesses is an absolute no-brainer. How we rate quality versus price has to change if we’re going to create any value for people. I know there are challenges when budgets are tight, but it’s the only way we will achieve what we need to achieve. We know that investment in communities through social return means that it’s worth doing differently.
And then of course we’ve got new technology and platforms emerging that are huge opportunities to create change. Things like dynamic purchasing – moving beyond the traditional framework contracts to dynamic systems that allow that greater flexibility is something that we’re only beginning to scratch the surface of.
There is still one big obstacle, and that is that all of the risks still sit with the supplier, rather than collectively with decisionmakers and politicians. We need to think differently about how we as procurers are not just committed to change, but that we become active partners in achieving it rather than just people who buy commodities and products. Food is not a commodity like a light bulb or nuts and bolts, and we need to stop treating it as such. Suppliers are asked to invest time and money to adapt, while buyers can walk away without consequence. We need to make sure that buyers have got some skin in the game.
Are there are any other examples that you haven’t already touched on that speak to joined up efforts when trying to impact systems change?
When we talk about systems thinking in public food, there are two reasons why this approach matters that I haven’t touched on.
First, we are spending public money. Therefore, we have an obligation to make sure that every penny that’s been allocated to us works as hard as it can. We do that in pockets across the UK, but we can do better.
Second, we are serving the most important groups in our society. That’s residents in care homes, people recovering from illness and injury, students, armed forces personnel, and our future generations; our children and young people. We owe it to them to play a role in creating the societal change we need through improving the food we serve.
Nothing we put on that plate can or should be considered in isolation. A single meal can support children’s health and ability to learn, help offset the effects of poverty, contribute to prevention and reduced health inequalities, and reinforce positive food habits for the future. At the same time, that plate reflects decisions about employment, wages, working conditions, land stewardship, climate impact and whether public money is circulating in local communities or flowing to shareholders’ pockets. And after all that, we need to make sure that a customer will eat a meal, enjoy it, and want to come back for another tomorrow. That is what systems thinking is in practice.
Now there are brilliant examples of this happening in the UK. In Scotland, over half of local authorities and school meals have Food for Life accreditation. Public caterers are active participants in their Sustainable Food Places. The Good Food Nation Act, passed in 2022, embeds a systems approach to food in law. While the Scottish Government is responsible for producing the first Good Food Nation Plan, local authorities and health boards also carry a legal duty to develop their own plans. This creates a unique opportunity to properly recognise and strengthen the role of local public catering in delivering systems change.
But all that doesn’t mean we stop learning from others, because this work is happening globally. We know of great examples in Copenhagen, and on a national level in Brazil, Colombia, and Singapore, who are doing great work and able to tailor it to rural islands and urban circumstances.
Are there any other organisations or individuals that you’d say you look to for inspiration and new ideas?
We’re really lucky in the UK to have a huge number of active NGOs, campaign groups, academics, volunteering and community groups, trade organisations, who are all focused on doing better and that’s really encouraging.
What strikes me most when you ask this question though – it reminds me of when we were at the Public Sector Catering Expo where I was very clearly reminded and humbled by the work on display from our public sector catering competition winners. We had a demo from the NHS chef of the year, the LACA chef of the year, and the NACC chef of the year. The thought that had gone into constructing and producing those dishes just blew me away. It was a real reminder to me that these guys are delivering the stuff that I talk about. I’m really privileged because I get to talk about it, but they’re out there, day-in-day-out, doing it in the kitchens and we do overlook them.
Moving into this new role, one of the questions I’m holding on to is how we ensure the right voices are around the table, and we make consultation meaningful and participation something that genuinely shapes decisions. There are so many people doing the hard work and holding the answers, and they’re often overlooked. That has been a really helpful reminder, and it is a lesson I’m taking with me.
The final question we always finish on is what’s for dinner tonight?
I don’t know what I’m having for dinner tonight because I’ve been in Glasgow for 12 days. I’m leaving after work tonight so I might get in at about eight o’clock. It will be whatever my husband has put in the slow cooker. It could be anything – a bean chilli, or a curry, it could be a stew…
I can tell you what I had last Friday night, though. I was at my parents’ house and I had a childhood favourite. My mum made fish and milk, smoked haddock poached in milk, with very creamy mashed potatoes. And for me, it’s such a lovely traditional Friday night dinner in the middle of winter and it just felt so comforting.